The OFCCP Requirements and What They Really Mean for You

This past February, after what seemed like years of discussion and disagreement, the Office of Federal Contract Compliance Program’s rules defining a job applicant were published and come into effect on May 6. While these rules only apply to organizations that have contracts with the federal government, they are generally followed by most other firms to avoid any potential EEOC or other issues that might arise.

Publication was immediately followed by a storm of confusion and fear. Recruiters began to panic. They began asking questions about what records they are required to maintain, whether everyone who visits a website is a candidate, what they have to show if they are audited, and can their applicant tracking system produce the required reports. This ruling is actually long overdue. The Internet and the extensive and growing use of recruiting websites have greatly increased the volume of potential candidates who visit and often submit resumes for positions. Very often these potential candidates are not qualified for those positions because they lack one or more of the criteria that are described in the job description. Yet, because they have applied, should they be considered candidates? Should their resumes be kept? Are they entitled to interviews just because they have expressed interest? This had become a gray area without clear guidelines, and many recruiters have struggled to create a reasonable and manageable process to be fair to candidates and to their own organizations. This OFCCP ruling now provides clear requirements. Simply stated, the OFCCP defines an Internet applicant as anyone:

  • Who submits an expression of interest in employment through the Internet or related electronic data technology
  • Is considered by the contractor for employment in a position
  • Indicates they possess basic qualifications for the positions
  • Does not remove him or herself from consideration.

The complete text of the ruling is available at the OFFCP’s website along with an excellent FAQ page that answers the questions I posed above and many more. Below, I’m including links to articles the OFFCP has written to provide you with a well-rounded view of what this ruling says and what it means. To further explore the topic, I am moderating a free webinar this coming Thursday (tomorrow), May 4. A panel of recruiting experts, as well as executives from the OFCCP and the EEOC, will engage in a vigorous discussion. I will moderate this discussion and bring your questions to the group. Full details and signup instructions can be found at www.accolo.com/debate/. The OFCCP ruling should go a long way in bringing about a more quantitative and objective way to define jobs by the skills and performance required, rather than by the general and rather subjective characteristics that are typical today. Job descriptions are often deliberately vague and often misleading so that a large number of people will be attracted. This allows a recruiter the opportunity to pick out the few that, for a variety of objective and subjective reasons, seem appropriate.

Article Continues Below

This may have worked in the paper age, but in the Internet age, the volume of respondents that is typical today has already led to overwork. Simply the ease with which a resume can be submitted encourages people who are blatantly unqualified to send in resumes. Taking the time to define performance-based criteria and the competencies required to do a particular job decreases the number of applicants. The OFCCP ruling is very clear that those who do not meet one or more requirements for the position are not candidates. By establishing objective criteria for jobs, screening and assessment becomes more straightforward and will raise the overall quality of candidates that are submitted to a hiring manager.

Read Lou Adler’s comments on this aspect of the ruling in his excellent article last Friday. Also read John Sumser’s succinct and informative article and comments. Gerry Crispin of Careerxroads has written a recent Careerxroads Update containing a number of additional links to material about this ruling. For those of you who are SHRM members, he also provides a link to his 19-page whitepaper on the ruling and what it means. Once all of the dust settles, the OFCCP will have done what many of us have been trying to do for decades: Encourage organizations to define jobs by competencies and performance requirements. This not only makes for a fair process, but it also increases the quality of candidates and employees and makes measuring their performances more straightforward. When you have straightforward performance measurements, tied to competencies, you can continuously refine and improve your screening criteria. In the end, all of this will make your job easier and will allow you to provide your clients and hiring managers with the best possible people. This article is provided for informational purposes only and is not intended to offer specific legal advice. You should consult your legal counsel regarding any threatened or pending litigation.

Kevin Wheeler is a globally known speaker, author, futurist, and consultant in talent management, human capital acquisition and learning & development. He has founded a number of organizations including the Future of Talent Institute, Global Learning Resources, Inc. and the Australasian Talent Conference, Ltd. He hosts Future of Talent Retreats in the U.S., Europe, and Australia. He writes frequently on LinkedIn, is a columnist for ERE.net, keynotes, and speaks at conferences and events globally, and advises firms on talent strategy. He has authored two books and hundreds of articles and white papers. He has a new book on recruiting that will be out in late summer of 2016. Prior to his current work, he had a 20+year corporate career in several San Francisco area tech and financial service firms. He has also been on the faculty of San Francisco State University and the University of San Francisco. He can be reached at kwheeler@futureoftalent.org.

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36 Comments on “The OFCCP Requirements and What They Really Mean for You

  1. I, for one, am glad to see the legal obligations imposed by OFCCP and associated agencies [EEOC, ADA, etc.] regarding the definition and handling of an ?internet candidate? finally put into perspective, especially as it relates to independent search and placement service enterprises.

    Maybe now the obsession and worry will abate to a reasonable level of concern, if there ever was a concern to begin with; by which I mean–is the government even interested in or capable of enforcing some of these Machiavellian (politically deceptive and bureaucratically expedient) policies? Especially, when our government , although capable (at least in terms of resources), has no interest in enforcing basic constitutional provisions such as Article IV, Section 4 of the U.S. Constitution; which says:

    ?The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic Violence.?

    Lest any think I jest, please allow me the literary license to extrapolate with an allegory to governmental insanity. Consider the following response to the hoax [10 ‘facts’ about immigration] that proliferated to a 130 weblogs by L.A. Times writer Jamie Gold ?Just the Facts?UPDATED? [ full text can link to the L.A Times site at: http://opinion.latimes.com/immigration/2006/05/according_to_th.html#comment-16940881%5D.

    The following is my summary of the L.A. Times correction; which, I?ll refer to as the Ten Real Facts about the cost of illegal immigrations unarmed invasion, that is otherwise often referred to as the Titanic:

    1: Cash Labor: the low-end estimate for LA County workers working for cash is 322,400 and the high end is 972,500 in 2000; and a mid-range 2004 estimate of 679,000, or 15% of the workforce with Los Angeles County workforce of about 4.5 million and total population close to 10 million.

    2: Homicide Warrants: 95% of the hundreds of outstanding homicide warrants (and 60% of outstanding felony warrants) in L.A. are for illegal immigrants.’

    3: Most Wanted: The Los Angeles Police Department’s most wanted list contains a number of people with unknown or obscured identities?Ditto for the FBI’s most-wanted list.

    4: Births: As many as 70,000 illegal immigrants a year use state-funded prenatal services?Two-thirds of all births here are to foreign-born mothers?40% of the births in California are to foreign-born women?1990-91 Los Angeles County study that showed that two-thirds of the women giving birth in public hospitals were undocumented?according to the California Department of Health Services, 158,782 babies were born in L.A. County in 2001 (these are the most recent statistics available online). Of these, 99,089 were to Hispanic mothers. That’s just under 2/3 ? 62.4% for all Hispanic moms, which would include legal and undocumented mothers from Mexico as well as other countries.

    5: Inmates in CA detention centers: Each year, the [Los Angeles] County Jail system processes about 170,000 inmates, and federal officials estimate that a fourth of them are illegal immigrants. But with just a fraction of the foreign-born being questioned, officials say it is impossible to know exactly how many illegal immigrants are in the system and how much the county should receive in federal compensation…the San Francisco Chronicle offered a lower figure for state prisons indicating nearly 171,000 inmates crowding state prisons, 22,478, or about 13 percent are suspected of being undocumented?the Federation for American Immigration Reform, a group in favor of reducing immigration, offers a lower figure for L.A. County jails: ‘Deportable aliens comprise 11% of the Los Angeles County jail population costing the county an estimated $75 million a year.’

    6: Living in Garages: As many as 100,000 families in Los Angeles County are believed to be living in bootlegged apartments or illegally converted garages?A systematic survey by The Times indicates that about 42,000 garages are sheltering about 200,000 people in Los Angeles County?a City of Los Angeles representative said that the last tally was done over five years ago, and found 50,000 to 70,000 illegally converted units in the city of Los Angeles, out of about 800,000 residences.

    7: Gangs: Of the membership of the notorious 18th Street gang, estimated at 20,000, fully 60% are illegal aliens, according to a 1995 report by the state Department of Justice?A confidential California Department of Justice study reported in 1995 that 60 percent of the 20,000-strong 18th Street Gang in southern California is illegal; police officers say the proportion is actually much greater?The leadership of the Columbia Lil? Cycos gang, which uses murder and racketeering to control the drug market around L.A.?s MacArthur Park, was about 60 percent illegal in 2002, says former assistant U.S. attorney Luis Li.

    8: HUD Housing: The state Housing and Community Development department has prepared new screening rules based on the welfare reform legislation adopted by Congress in 1996 that would ban illegal aliens from public housing programs. The HCD estimates that as many as 5 percent of 25,000 housing units could be affected.

    9: Spanish speaking radio stations: Estimates vary by source: one website lists 15 Spanish stations out of 78, another lists 18 out of 83.

    10: Speak Primarily Spanish ? Nearly 50%: The Census reports that as of the year 2004, 3.9 million people in L.A. County speak only English at home; 3.7 million speak primarily Spanish at home.

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    This is a commentary on just one county. Does anyone think our government is missing the forest for the trees; and might have bigger fish to fry in terms of protecting those who have a legal right to work in the U.S ?

    FOR THOSE NOT YET CONVINCED — READ ON:

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    Hospital To The World Welcomes Illegals & Contagious Diseases

    Dr. Madeleine Cosman, Ph.D., ESQ
    April 25, 2005
    NewsWithViews.com

    Illegal aliens cross America?s borders medically unexamined. We shrug. We do not know what Illegal Aliens carry in their backpacks. We do not know what they carry in their bodies.

    Long ago we knew what legal immigrants brought with them. When my grandpa came to America, he kissed the ground of New York?s Ellis Island, then he stripped naked and coughed hard. Every legal immigrant before 1924 was examined for infectious diseases upon arrival and tested for tuberculosis. Anyone infected was shipped back to the old country. That was powerful incentive for each newcomer to make heroic efforts to appear healthy.

    Today, legal immigrants must demonstrate that they are free of communicable diseases and drug addiction to qualify for lawful permanent residency Green Cards.

    But Illegal Aliens stop at no medical checkpoint. Whoever walks through our foolishly open Golden Door comes in healthy or sick. If a border patrol sentry catches a healthy Illegal Alien he might be sent back home immediately. However, if we catch and detain a sick Illegal Alien, who after examination by physicians in a detention center proves to have a serious disease, we keep him! Foolish compassion makes us fear that his home country has neither adequate medical resources nor modern wonder drugs. So we release sick Illegal Aliens to the American streets, to infect others if their diseases are contagious, or we place them in our Medicaid program where we pay for their expensive treatments.

    Foolish medical generosity encourages clever Illegal Aliens to exploit free medical care that EMTALA, the Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act, provides.[1] Foolish medical graciousness encourages cynical Illegal Aliens to take and take and take again.[2] Only a foolish guest will refuse what a foolish host offers. Our wide-open Golden Door guarantees that Illegal Aliens in their own self-interest will use and abuse our medical system. Our Golden Door also is propped open thanks to advocacy and legal aid of Mexican American Legal Defense and Education Foundation, National Immigration Law Center, Southern Poverty Law Center, and similar open border groups.[3] America is fast becoming Hospital to the World.

    Horrendous diseases that long ago America had conquered are resurging. Horrific diseases common in Third World poverty and medical ignorance suddenly are appearing in American emergency rooms and medical offices. Along with the visible invasion of Illegal Aliens across our borders is an invisible invasion of deadly diseases.[4]

    Many illegals who skulk across our borders have tuberculosis (TB). That disease had disappeared from America thanks to excellent hygiene and powerful modern drugs such as Isoniazid and Rifampin.[5] ,[6] ,[7] ,[8] ,[9] ,[10] TB?s swift, deadly return now is lethal for about 60% of those infected. The culprit is the new Multi-Drug Resistant Tuberculosis (MDR-TB).[11] Until recently MDR-TB was endemic to Mexico.[12] ,[13]

    The mycobacterium tuberculosis is resistant to at least two major TB drugs. Ordinary TB usually is cured in six months with four drugs (that cost about $2000). MDR-TB takes 24 months with many expensive drugs with toxic side effects (that cost around $250,000).[14] ,[15] Each Illegal Alien with MDR-TB coughs and infects numerous people who will not show symptoms immediately. Latent disease explodes later, like a time bomb.

    TB was virtually absent in Virginia until in 2002 it spiked a 17% increase, but Prince William County, not far from Washington, D.C., had a meteoric rise of 188%. Public health officials blamed immigrants. Indiana School of Medicine in 2001 studied an outbreak of MDR-TB traced to illegal aliens from Mexico.

    The Queens, New York, health department attributed 81% of new TB cases in 2001 to immigrants. The Centers for Disease Control ascribed 42% of all new TB cases to ?foreign born? people who have up to eight times higher incidence.[16] ,[17] ,[18] ,[19] ,[20] ,[21] Apparently 66% of all TB cases coming to America originate in Mexico, the Philippines, and Viet Nam.

    Virulent TB outbreaks afflicted schoolteachers and children in Michigan,[22] ,[23] and adults and kids in Texas.[24] The teachers and kids caught it at school from coughing children of Illegal Aliens. In Minnesota, policemen suddenly came down with MDR-TB. The cops caught it in their patrol cars when they arrested Illegal Aliens who coughed in their faces. Recently TB erupted in Portland, Maine, and Del Ray Beach, Florida.

    Chagas Disease has no known cure. Chagas has the revolting nickname of kissing bug disease. The Reduviid bug has parasites that favor the lips and face for infection. That noxious Trypanosoma-Cruzi protozoan annually infects 18 million people in Latin America and causes 50,000 deaths.[25] ,[26] ,[27] ,[28] ,[29] ,[30] ,[31] This seditious disease also infiltrates America?s blood supply. Chagas affects blood transfusions and transplanted organs. Hundreds of blood recipients may be silently infected.[32] After 10 to 20 years, up to 30% will die when their hearts or intestines, enlarged and weakened by Chagas Disease, burst.[33] Two people died of the three people in 2001 who received Chagas-infected organ transplants.

    Leprosy, a scourge in Biblical days and in medieval Europe, so horribly destroys flesh, faces, and fingers it was called Disease of the Soul.[34] Lepers quarantined in leprosaria sounded noisemakers when they ventured out to warn people to stay far away. Leprosy or Hansen?s Disease was so rare in America that in 40 years only 900 people were afflicted.[35] ,[36] ,[37] ,[38] Suddenly, in the past three years America has more than 7,000 cases of leprosy. Leprosy now is endemic to northeastern states. There are leprosy clinics in New York City. Illegal Aliens and other immigrants brought leprosy from India, Brazil, the Caribbean, and Mexico.[39] ,[40] ,[41]

    Dengue Fever is exceptionally rare in America though common in Ecuador, Peru, Viet Nam, Thailand, Bangladesh, Malaysia, and Mexico.[42] Recently there was a virulent outbreak of Dengue Fever on the Webb County, Texas, border with Mexico.[43] Though Dengue usually is not a fatal disease, Dengue Hemorrhagic Fever, is one strain of the disease that routinely kills.

    Polio was eradicated from America but now reappears in illegal immigrants.[44] Intestinal parasites were mostly obliterated. Our fine sanitation and microbe-safe food supplies made them disappear. But they are back, in the bodies of Illegal Aliens.[45] ,[46] ,[47] ,[48]

    Malaria was obliterated but now is re-emerging in Texas and other states.[49] ,[50] ,[51] ,[52] No mosquito that bites a person infected with malaria checks identification papers before biting another person to transmit debilitating fever.

    About 4000 young children under age five annually in America contract the infectious disease called Kawasaki Disease. Youngsters develop fever, red eyes, ?strawberry tongue,? and acute inflammation of their coronary arteries and other blood vessels. Many suffer heart attacks and sudden death.[53] ,[54]

    Hepatitis A, B, and C are resurging.[55] ,[56] ,[57] ,[58] An outbreak of Hepatitis A in 2003 near Pittsburgh endangered 3000 thanks to infected Mexico-grown scallions and Illegal Alien kitchen workers in a Chi-Chi?s restaurant. Two Americans died. Asians number 4% of Americans but over 50% of Hepatitis B cases. We inoculate all newborns for Hepatitis B although mainly Asians are susceptible.[59] Why? The answer is political judgment not medical judgment.[60]

    Deadly Marburg disease, like the fierce hemorrhagic Ebola, right now in April, 2005, is devastating Angola.[61] Physicians in that African country are despairing as hundreds of infected people bleed to death. Just one infected person who could walk through the Golden Door of our Hospital to the World could be a suicide bomber with incendiaries in his arteries, veins, or capillaries.

    Terrorists are buying so-called ?weapons grade? strains of disease organisms for bio-warfare. America risks devastation by evil intent of a terrorist or by innocent accident of an infected Illegal Alien walking through our foolishly open Golden Door.

    Illegal Aliens secret in their bodies invisible, deadly time bombs. Homeland Security ignores these lethal weapons of health destruction.

    Footnotes:

    1 Madeleine Cosman, Illegal Aliens and EMTALA,
    2 Madeleine Cosman, Illegal Aliens and American Medicine, Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons 17:1 (Spring, 2005), http://www.JAPANDS.com.
    3 William Hawkins and Erin Anderson?s The Open Borders Lobby and the Nation?s Security after 9/11, Los Angeles: Center for the Study of Popular Culture, 2004. http://www.frontpagemagazine.com.
    4 Frosty Wooldridge?s Immigration’s Unarmed Invasion, Deadly Consequences Bloomington, Indiana: Author House, 2004.
    5 Meyer M, Barron D, ImmigrantMedicine.qxd. [Read]
    6 Centers for Disease Control, http://www.cdc.gov/netinfo
    7 Seattle Biomedical Research Institute, http://www.info@sbri.org
    8 New York Online Access to Health, http://www.NOAH-health.org
    9 National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, National Institutes of Health, http://www.NIAID.nih.gov
    10 Gavagan T, Brodyaga L. Medical care for immigrants and refugees. Am Fam Physician 1998; 57:1061-1068.
    11 Lee B. Reichman?s Time Bomb: The Global Epidemic of Multi-Drug Resistant Tuberculosis, New York: McGraw Hill Professional, 2001. http://www.TBtimebomb.com
    12 Pablos-Mendez A, Raviglione MC, Laszio A, et al. Global surveillance for anti-tuberculosis-drug resistance, 1994-1997. N Engl J Med 1998; 338:1641-1649.
    13 New York Academy of Sciences, Update, January, 2002.
    14 National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, National Institutes of Health, http://www.NIAID.nih.gov
    15 New York Online Access to Health, http://www.NOAH-health.org
    16 McCray E, Weinbaum CM, Brader CR, et al. The epidemiology of tuberculosis in the United States. Clin Chest Med 1997;18:99-113.
    17 Division of Tuberculosis Elimination, CDC. Tuberculosis morbidity among U.S.-born and foreign-born populations-United States, 2000. MMWR Morb Mortal Wkly Rep 2002;51:101-104.
    18 Recommendations for the prevention and control of tuberculosis among foreign born persons. MMWR Morb Mortal Wkly Rep 1998;47:1-29.
    19 Talbot EA, Moore M, McCray E, et al. Tuberculosis among foreign-born persons in the United States, 1993-1998. JAMA 2000;284:2894-2900.
    20 GT Strickland?s Hunter?s Tropical Medicine. Philadelphia, PA: W.B. Saunders Company, 2000.
    21 Chin DP, DeRiemer K, Small PM, et al. Differences in contributing factors to tuberculosis incidence in US-born and foreign-born persons. Am J Respir Crit Care Med 1998;158:1797-1803.
    22 Frosty Wooldridge?s Immigration’s Unarmed Invasion, Deadly Consequences Bloomington, Indiana: Author House, 2004.
    23 Immigrants? Health Care Coverage and Access Fact Sheet. Washington, DC. Kaiser Commission on Medicaid and the Uninsured; March 2001.
    24 Sahly HM, Adams GJ, Soini H, et al. Epidemiologic differences between United States and foreign-born tuberculosis patients in Houston, Texas. J Infect Dis 2001;183:461-468
    25 National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, National Institutes of Health, [Read]
    26 New York Online Access to Health, http://www.NOAH-health.org
    27 Centers for Disease Control, http://www.cdc.gov/netinfo
    28 Seattle Biomedical Research Institute, http://www.info@sbri.org
    29 http://www.rarediseases.org
    30 National Institutes of Health, Division of Parasitic Diseases, [Read]
    31 Frosty Wooldridge?s Immigration’s Unarmed Invasion, Deadly Consequences Bloomington, Indiana: Author House, 2004.
    32 McNeill DG. Chagas. New York Times, November 18, 2003.
    33 Hagar JM, Rahimtoola, SH. Chagas? Heart Disease. Curr Probl Cardiol 1995;20:825
    34 Saul Nathaniel Brody?s The Disease of the Soul: Leprosy in Medieval Literature. Ithaca: Cornell University Press, 1974.
    35 Walker P, Jaranson J. Refugee and immigrant health care. Med Clin North Am 1999;4:1103-1120.
    36 National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, National Institutes of Health, http://www.NIAID.nih.gov
    37 New York Online Access to Health, http://www.NOAH-health.org
    38 Centers for Disease Control, http://www.cdc.gov/netinfo
    39 Statistical abstract of the United States, 1996. In: The National Data Book. 116th ed. Washington, DC: U.S. Department of Commerce, Bureau of the Census;1996.
    40 Gavagan T, Brodyaga L. Medical care for immigrants and refugees. Am Fam Physician 1998;57:1061-1068.
    41 Meyer M, Barron D, ImmigrantMedicine.qxd. [Read]
    42 http://www.outbreaknewsdigest.org. 27 May 2001
    43 National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, National Institutes of Health, http://www.NIAID.nih.gov
    44 Findley S, Irigoyen M, Schulman A. Children on the move and vaccination coverage in a low-income urban Latino population. Am J Pub Health 1999; 89: 1728-1731.
    45 Salas S, Heifetz R, Barrett-Connor E. Intestinal parasites in Central American immigrants in the United States. Arch Intern Med 1990;150:1514-1516.
    46 Flores EC, Plumb SC, McNeese MC. Intestinal parasitosis in an urban pediatric clinic population. Am J Dis Child 1983;137:754-756.
    47 Liu H, Weller S. Strongyloides and other intestinal nematode infections. Infect Dis Clin North Am 1993; 7:662-677.
    48 Muennig P, Pallin D, Sell RL, et al. The cost effectiveness of strategies for the treatment of intestinal parasites in immigrants. N Engl J Med 1999;340:773-779.
    49 Krogstad DJ. Malaria as a re-emerging disease. Epidemiol Rev 1996;18:77-89.
    50 White NJ. The treatment of malaria. N Engl J Med 1996;335:800-806.
    51 Moody A, Hunt-Cook A, Gabbett E, et al. Performance of the OptiMAL antigen capture dipstick for malaria diagnosis and treatment?Hospital for Tropical Diseases, London. Br J Haematol 2000; 109:891.
    52 Statistical yearbook of the Immigration and Naturalization Service, 1996. Washington, DC: Immigration and Naturalization Service, 1997.
    53 Newburger JW American Heart Association revises Kawasaki Disease guidelines. Dallas, TX, October 25, 2004, http://www.aha.org, endorsed by American Academy of Pediatrics.
    54 Meyer M, Barron D, ImmigrantMedicine.qxd. [Read]
    55 Franks AL, Berg CJ, Kane MA, et al. Hepatitis B infection among children born in the United States to Southeast Asian refugees. New Engl J Med 1989;321: 1301-1304.
    56 National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, National Institutes of Health, http://www.NIAID.nih.gov
    57 Kulstrunk M, Euequoz D, Dubach VC, et al. Prevalence of hepatitis B virus in Kurdish refugees. J Hepatology 1992;15: 418-419.
    58 Hurie MB, Mast EE, Davis JP. Horizontal transmission of hepatitis B virus nfection to United States-born children of Hmong refugees. Pediatrics 1992;89:269-273.
    59 Schlafly P. Disease Attacks On Americans. Eagle Forum, November 7, 2001, [Read]
    60 Cosman, M. Illegal Aliens and American Medicine, Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons 17:1 (Spring, 2005), http://www.JAPANDS.com
    61 Joseph Farah?s G2Bulletin, http://www.WorldNetDaily.com

    ? 2005 Madeleine Cosman – All Rights Reserved

  2. Hey Brandon –

    What’s your point? (OK, I admit I didn’t read the whole thing.) 3 questions:
    1. What % of beggars are illigal? (Close to 0%?)
    2. And what % of the rest of the scourge-on-society – in prison, a burden on social services, etc.? – An earlier posting on Boston’s slums areas. (About the same?)
    3. What % of illegals are working or looking for honest work? (On street corners, etc. -95%+?).

    It sounds like another (albeit well written and documented) diatribe about the negatives while we enjoy, yet ignore the positives (a vital entry-work force, low prices & services). What did I miss?

    Do like I did, solving it one at a time. (I adopted 2 of them & both are going great!).
    Jon

  3. Jonathan,

    I grant that my comments were off-topic, meant only as an analogy; but since you asked, I respond to what I believe you were refering to in terms of my comments on the invasion of illegal immigrants.

    First, it’s important to read the entire peice for context. Second, what part of illegal is it that’s so hard to understand. Third, I have no malace toward poor people who want to work and work hard they do. I fault our government to letting the situation get out of control. PLEASE CONSIDER THE FOLLOWING:

    The Mexican and South American elite are not stupid, they?re exporting their problems to the U.S.

    The provisions of the amnesty rewarding 3 million illegal aliens in te 1986 were never implemented or enforce. Open borders only entices millions more foreign workers to illegally enter our communities, crowd the housing and schools, take the jobs and depress the wages. This dramatically changes occupations and communities in America. Have you seen the standstill traffic on I-5 from Los Angeles to Tijuana.

    Legal immigration alone has doubled from 1 million to 2 million a year, when prior to 1986 annual immigration ranged from 60,000 to 250,000. Now consider the current US population at 300 million (50 million being immigrants [legal and illegal] and their dependents). Imagine adding 66 to 200+ million more in the next 20 to 50 years plus additional births. Our own governments estimates suggest that by mid-century the U.S population, under these conditions will exceed 500 million and be a billion by the end of the century. The middle class in America is already shrinking, and a permanent underclass is forming [think India or our closest neighbor Mexico].

    Have you considered real human plight of middle class American workers? Illegal cheap labor, allowed by a gutless politically correct elite overlook factory sweat shops in Los Angeles, food service , agriculture, hospitality industries that pay substandard wages and no benefits. What about the forced prostitution of young girls, and boys going on in the migrant camps in the hills and canyons skirting our communities? What about the environmental catastrophe that is developing, associated with these camps where building codes that citizens must abide by are ignored.

    In Austin, MN [and many other places just like it] a once proud rural middle class father or mother worked in meat packing plants [doing the dirtiest of labor], but have lost their jobs, livelihoods, retirements, and consequently their homes that in many cases resulted in broken families due to union busting enabled by illegals who?d take the jobs [work that these Americans and their unions fought for while at the same time they no longer wanted?hum?]. I don?t know what these English speaking, mostly high school educated midlife adults thought they were going to do when they lost these jobs?retraining I guess.

    And trades like construction (industries once dominated by American craftsman?are being replaced by cheap incompetent labor. This is no rank speculation, I come from a family of tradesmen, my brother-in-law is a tradesman, and the picture isn?t pretty. Product quality suffers and middle class America loose ground. I own a house that has three windows that need to be replaced due to poor construction practices. It?s going to cost me thousands to correct.

    What about the millions marching in the streets recently? Well let me share my personal experience, as I was an eye witness to it, trying to pick up my ninth grade daughter from a southern CA High School, two days in a row. On neither day could I access the school, in my normal pattern, from the streets with my vehicle. The streets [a major city artery with freeway on and off ramps] and access to the school was shut down by students, illegally skipping school, carrying Mexican flags, chanting disparaging comments about ?their adopted country?; while my daughter, a legal citizen, was in lock down, as these protesting students where out demonstrating instead of studying in school?costing the school district thousands of dollars and destroying property [protest after school if you must]. On the second day my daughter was thrust into this crowd of demonstrators by school administrators that I later scolded for their stupidity in putting her in harms way. This is a long way from ?law-abiding?.

    No one entering our country illegally has a RIGHT to the American dream. If so, then you won?t mind if I simply stop paying taxes, and stop paying out over $10,000 year-in-and-year-out to maintain health care coverage for my little family of four. I look forward to you supporting my efforts to get education assistance for my daughters? college costs. Sorry but my middle class income doesn?t qualify my family for assistance; but anchor babies from illegal families do. THAT?S FAIR?RIGHT ? !

    The idealist in me would like to save every sole on the planet, but the pagmatist knows it isn’t posible.

    FOR MORE INSIGHT FROM PEOPLE SMARTER THAN ME, CONSIDER INSIGHTS FROM THE FOLLOWING COLUMNISTS [ONE LIBERAL AND ON CONSERVATIVE]:

    AN UGLY REALITY, BY THOMAS SOWELL, APR 18, 2006 [A BLACK INTELLECTUAL COLUMNIST LOOKS AT THE IMMIGRATION ISSUE]

    Thank heaven for the massive marches across the country by those favoring illegal immigrants. These marches revealed the ugly truth behind the fog of pious words and clever political spin from the media and from both Democrats and Republicans in Washington.

    ‘Guest workers’? Did any of the strident speakers, with their in-your-face bombast in Spanish, sound like guests? Did they sound like people who wanted to become Americans?

    Were they even asking for amnesty? They didn’t sound like they were asking for anything. They sounded like they were telling. Demanding. Threatening.

    Somebody must have told them that their Mexican flags that dominated the earlier marches were not making a good impression on television, so they started flying American flags. But such cosmetic changes did not keep the ugly reality from coming through in their hostile speeches.

    These were not the speeches of people who wanted to join American society but people who wanted their own turf on American soil — in disregard and defiance of what American citizens want.

    Europe has already been through this ‘guest worker’ policy that we are being urged to follow. They have learned the hard way what it means to have a growing foreign population in their midst — a population that insists on remaining foreign and hostile to the culture, values and people around them.

    Some European countries have learned this lesson at the cost of riots and bloodshed in the streets and lives lost in terrorist attacks. Others have only had to contend with national polarization — thus far — but polarization is not a small thing.

    In this country, however, there are still people who refuse to learn any lesson at all. Some business interests see only an opportunity to get cheap labor. Some intellectuals see only abstract principles about abstract people crossing an abstract border.

    Some tell us loftily that earlier generations of immigrants who were once thought to be unassimilable turned out over time to become as American as anyone else and patriotic citizens.

    That might well be true of immigrants from Mexico, both legal and illegal, if the circumstances of today were the same as the circumstances during an earlier era of immigration from Europe. But circumstances are not the same — and those circumstances are not going to become the same by pretending that they are.
    The ugly display of grievance-mongering bombast at the illegal immigrant marches is just one of those circumstances that are not the same as in an earlier era.

    When people came here from Europe, they came here to become Americans. There was no prouder title for them.

    American generals of German ancestry led the fight against Germany in both World Wars. The Irish ‘Fighting 69th’ earned its fame on the battlefields of the First World War and Japanese American fighting units were among the most highly decorated in World War II. They proved they were Americans.

    The underlying tragedy of the present situation is that it is doubtful whether the activist loudmouths, who were too contemptuous of this country to even speak its language while demanding its benefits, represent most immigrants from Mexico.

    Both legal and illegal immigrants have come here primarily to work and make a better life for themselves and their families. But a country requires more than workers. It requires people who are citizens not only in name but in commitment.

    Americanization did not happen automatically in earlier times and it will not happen automatically today. Immigrants in an earlier era had leaders and organizations actively working to transform them into Americans — the Catholic Church with the Irish and numerous organizations among the Jews, for example.
    Today’s immigrant activists and the politicians who kowtow to them have just the opposite agenda, to keep foreigners foreign and to make other Americans accept and adjust to that. It will be a national tragedy if they succeed.

    Just what problem will amnesty solve? Illegal aliens will benefit and politicians will benefit by sweeping the illegality under the rug by making it legal. But how will American citizens benefit? America can lose big time.
    Thomas Sowell is the prolific author of books such as Black Rednecks and White Liberals and Applied Economics.

    WHAT BUSH FAILS TO SEE AT THE BORDER, BY RONALD F. MAXWELL, WASHINGTON TIMES COLUMNIST, APRIL 6, 2006

    Dear President Bush, Perhaps you know me from my work. I wrote and directed the movies ‘Gettysburg’ and ‘Gods and Generals.’ Walking Civil War battlefields, soaking up the letters and diaries of that generation, re-creating the world of our ancestors — all this has given me a deep appreciation for our country. My dad was with the Army Air Corps in North Africa while your dad was in the Pacific. My French mother was liberated in Tunisia and became a lawful immigrant to the United States. For an American, my story is unique and typical at the same time.

    You probably don’t need to be reminded of the hostility and animus directed your way by most of the Hollywood community. Then again, I’m sure you don’t take it personally. After all, they held Ronald Reagan in equal contempt. As one of the very few directors of major motion pictures who sees you in a different light, I implore you to listen seriously to what I have to say.

    What is happening on the southern border is unprecedented. Not only in our own history, but in the history of the world. No country at any time anywhere has sustained the influx of tens of millions of foreigners across its borders. A wave of anti-American leftism is sweeping Latin America. A socialist radical may soon be elected as the president of Mexico, a country which officially encourages its emigrants to vote in Mexican elections, urging them to think of themselves as Mexican first and perhaps only. The eventual outcome is plain for anyone with eyes to see. This is invasion masquerading as immigration.

    It may already be too late to avoid a future annexation of the Southwest by Mexico or the evolution of a Mexican-dominated satellite state. This is not to say Mexican people are better or worse than any of God’s children. It is to say that millions of ethnically and culturally homogeneous people will seek self-determination in a land they will increasingly feel justified in claiming as their own. Especially when the natural weight of demographic change is accompanied by the soundtrack of radical demagoguery which seeks to legitimize and moralize this phenomenon as a ‘reconquista.’ Many pundits claim you will be remembered in history as the president who won (or lost) the war in Iraq. I see it differently. I believe you will come to be seen, in the years and decades to come, as the President who saved (or lost) the Southwest of the United States.

    Mr. President, this is a time for candor. Your immigration policy is viewed as captive to the cheap labor — big business lobby and inimical to the survival of our country. It is splitting the party and draining away support for your presidency. We who understand the vital stakes will not be placated by rhetoric or slogans. The failure to recognize this growing and deep disaffection among Republicans, conservatives, independents and, indeed, many Reagan Democrats, is, in the short run, going to lead to a monumental defeat for your party at the polls in November.

    The last two years of your presidency will be plagued with impeachment hearings, with pressures to diminish the war against terrorism, with the cutting off of funds for the war of liberation in Iraq for which so many of our brothers in uniform have paid the ultimate price. The American people will once again be forced to endure a painful repetition of the humiliating withdrawal from Vietnam. We will be dedicating yet another monument to brave men who gave their lives for honor, country and a lost cause.

    I understand that in your heart you want to believe that the border should be an open place where goods and people can move freely back and forth for the good of all. I do not question your integrity or the goodness and decency of your motivations. Dear Mr. President, this is a utopian creed, which must be discarded before it is too late.

    When I watched the Senate Judiciary Committee’s one-day public session on immigration reform (I suppose we should be grateful that Sen. Arlen Specter devoted one whole day out of his busy schedule for the public discussion of a problem regarding 20 million illegal aliens) it was remarkable for the near absence of any senator speaking on behalf of the American people or their own constituents. It seems the overriding concern of most senators of both parties is for the illegal immigrant population. Perhaps these senators should be reminded that they are supposed to represent and defend American citizens, not foreign nationals, illegal aliens or indeed anyone else. Listening to the self-serving and pandering speeches, you’d think the senators were elected in Mexico or any other country on the globe except America.

    Where was the concern for American schoolchildren forced to sit in overcrowded classes, for American patients forced to wait in overcrowded hospitals, for American workers whose wages are being undercut, for American drivers forced to sit in interminable traffic jams in over-whelmed freeway systems, for the victims of organized gangs, for the American college students who are turned away from publicly funded state universities, for many African Americans who are being literally displaced from their neighborhoods while being moved figuratively, once again, to the back of the bus, for those environmentalists and conservationists who want to protect open space and slow down urban sprawl, for the American taxpayers who have had to bear the burden of billions of dollars in increased welfare costs, over-burdened prisons, extra police and security and even, adding insult to injury, for bilingual education?

    Where was the concern that we as a people are compelled to deal with these ‘in your face’ issues which have been imposed upon us by external forces, instead of focusing our time, energies and capital on our own indigenous, urgent concerns, like for instance, the medical care for our own countrymen and women. Might it be irresponsible to mislead the 20 million illegal foreigners already here and might it be immoral to encourage the yearly arrival of millions more when we cannot even take care of our own millions of poor and sick and hungry and, yes, dare I say it, our unemployed?

    Working as I do in Civil War history, I have had to explore the ugly depths of the American institution of slavery, and have been privileged to work alongside civil rights leaders and specialists in African-American history. For this reason it troubles me that we appear today to be importing a second virtual slave class of low-wage workers who are hired to replace or displace less-educated or privileged Americans — including the very descendants of American slaves.

    I agree with you that ‘no child should be left behind.’ But that is precisely what immigration advocates are doing to the children of America’s working class — by flooding the market with workers from a desperately poor country, who depress the wages of high school and even college graduates.

  4. Hi Brandon,

    What an eye opener on immigration .

    May I have permission to share this info with others ?

  5. I’ve been on the fence on this topic and see both sides, so I am playing devils advocate here and will bring the more positive side of illegal immigration.

    Yes there are positive –

    Have you thought about the fact that Illegal Immigrants Do Help the Economy?

    What about the Taxes they Pay? Yes they pay taxes when they buy Products in America, when they stay at hotels, when the eat at restaurants. Food, clothes, furniture, housing…

    Cut and pasted – Yes it is true that
    Providing public education for children of illegal aliens costs about $3.1 billion in the seven key states in 1993-94, according to the Urban Institute.
    Illegal aliens in prison cost about $471 million a year, and they consume about $445 million more in Medicaid funds. But these costs are offset by about $1.9 billion in taxes paid by illegals and billions more in consumer spending.

    BUT – Impoverished field workers from Mexico get all the publicity, but the INS estimates that only 31 percent of illegal aliens are Mexican. And of the 1.7 million illegal workers who applied for citizenship in 1987, less than 4 percent were in farming, fishing, or forestry. In contrast, over 4 percent were executives, managers, or professionals; 21 percent held service jobs; and 24 percent were operators, fabricators, or laborers. Illegal aliens are consumers, too.

    There are an estimated 11 million to 12 million illegal immigrants in the United States. Some 7.2 million of them are employed — about 5 percent of the U.S. labor force

    Cheap Labor makes for great Profits for businesses For businesses, cheap labor can translate into fatter profits. If owners use those profits to expand their businesses, it does boost economic activity.

    Economists at the Federal Reserve banks in Dallas and Atlanta found no evidence in 2003 that wages of higher-skilled U.S.-born workers were hurt by immigration, although lower-wage workers were affected

    Many immigrants do pay taxes. Since they pay payroll taxes, they’re helping to bankroll Social Security and Medicare but won’t get to participate in the programs because of their immigration status.

    They expand the nation’s overall labor pool and productivity. ‘We can make more stuff and that can add to overall economic activity,’ said Andrew Bernard, professor of international economics at Dartmouth College’s Tuck School of Business.

  6. First, I feel a bit sheepish about encroaching on Kevin’s article.

    Paul, Please share it far and wide. Just don’t forget to offer the appropriate attribution to the other authors I cited [citing me isn’t important].

    Then call and fax the dopes that represent you in Washington !!!

    Tell them you love all immigrants ? AS LONG AS THEY?RE HERE LEGALLY.

    This isn?t brain surgery. Close the boarders and enforce employer sanctions?
    –no jobs, then no work, they go home, we let in what the economy needs, SIMPLE !

    Karen,

    Your arguments are unpersuasive. WHAT PART OF ILLEGAL DON’T YOU UNDERSTAND?

    How many little girls and boys and young adult women being smuggled in to service the illegal workforce in prostitution rings are you willing to accept? There are a thousand other objections; but if you can justify just this one, then I’m on your side.

    Respond agian once you?ve read:

    – Non-State Threats and Future Wars by Dr. Robert Bunker, recognized to be the foremost scholar in the fields of war theory and epochal change?

    -Collapse by Jared Diamond

    AND

    -Immigrations Unarmed Invasion by Frosty Woodridge

    Once you’ve read these and can answer the question above we can discuss the issue on a level playing field. Until then read…

  7. Brandon,
    no, I don’t think I will read. Thanks all the same.. I know I can also pick up literature that will have another Solid Argument to the Contraire. Everyone will be able to present ‘facts and data’ to support their arguments.

    I am embarrassed to say that I have had my own prejudices regarding this topic, but today I am trying to have an open mind. That is because I have spoken to people, real people who are citizens today, though their parents were illegals, and have heard their stories.

    Maybe that may be a suggestion. Talk to People. Hear their stories before lumping everyone into ONE Big group.

    Karen M.

  8. Seeing as this dicsussion morphed into the greater issue of illegal immigration, it may be an appropriate segway for me to mention an article I read in the Wall Street Journal last week (May 18, 2006), entitled ‘The Other Hidden Immigrants.’ The aricle discusses the LEGAL immigration and integration of people who are credentialed as professionals in their country of birth, but upon immigration to the U.S., they do not meet the U.S. requirements to perform the same work or profession here. Thus, they make good-intentioned attempts to apply for other types of positions, assumingly possessive of a myriad of skills and education levels, but often fall very short in translation of skills to a position here that represents a good match of qualifications vs. their abilities. This tends to trap them in jobs that are beneath their ability. Most of the problem stems from their cultural stumbles and communications during the interview process. The article reminds us that if we are looking for very capable and motivated people for many of the important front-line, managerial, or even director level positions that are hard to fill in some industries, we should seek this type of person out. There are some non-profit and governmental agencies devoted to providing assistance to these type of candidates. It is those legal folks that I would hope that we remember as we assist all our candidates to find their best opportunities.

  9. Karen, anyone who?s read a word I?ve written will predict my response–support any argument with standards and facts to justify an argument.

    I don’t mean to be harsh, but where’s your support for keeping an ?open mind??

    Definitions of an ?open mind? include:

    – Free of prejudice; receptive to new ideas and arguments?[that would mean reading and assessing both sides of an issue].

    – Receptive to new ideas or to reason [that requires investigation and considering the ideas…certainly one would have to keep on open mind to the stories of those who haven’t broken the law–don’t you think?]

    ?Prejudices? [bias, preconception, sway, slant] are born out of ignorance. Ignorance is born of reliance on limited empirical data; like the evidence formed from opinion based on stories of those whose parents broke the law. Your entitled to your opinion, but don?t delude yourself that mere opinion has any value or logical basis as support for any responsible or reasoned debate.

    Your limited analysis [stories of ?real people? who are citizens today, though their parents were ?illegals?] is at its best little more than a personal prejudice [an opinion], which clouds the real issues and blocks the possibility of gaining any real insight into an extremely complex array of weighty issues where the consequences to our society [our very way of life] are so severe as to defy imagination. Be careful what you ask for.

    Synonyms for ?open?:
    – unlock
    – grasp
    – commence
    – begin

    To be open minded requires both the willingness and ability to stand toe-to-toe in an argument, especially one as serious as open borders and illegal immigration. Commence reading information on both sided of the argument–I HAVE.

    And finally, in the spirit of being open minded, please ‘begin’ by addressing the question from my last posting which was:

    ?How many little girls and boys and young adult women being smuggled in to service the illegal workforce in prostitution rings are you willing to accept??

  10. Brandon, I have found your posts to this group to be very insightful in the past, but agree with Karen Mattonen on this one. ‘Illegal’ is a problem with the law. We need more immigrants and we need border control. We also need a better system than the one we have today which allows our neighbor Mexico with 150 million people to have the same number of legal immigrants as Botswana or Nepal.

    As the Boomers retire, we will need an influx of skilled workers in fields like nursing, teaching, engineering, and in middle and upper management. There are not enough GenX and GenY’ers to replace the retirees. Thus, I think we need to expand the H1B program or get rid of it entirely to allow foreign workers to naturalize more quickly. We need the workers to pay for the exploding Social Security and Medicare benefits of the Boomers!

    Clearly, with unemployment at a historically low rate of 4.7%, we also are fully utilizing all the illegal immigrants. So we need all the unskilled immigrants as well. There may be a slightly depressive effect on wages of Americans who are unskilled, but those who are impacted can gain more skills or go back to school to avoid competition with the unskilled influx.

    I’m glad and confident that eventually the Senate’s ‘comprehensive’ bill will become the law of the land and will bring in tougher border security; require illegals to register as guest workers, pay a hefty fine, learn english, and pass a civics exam; and go to the back of the line for applying for citizenship of foreigners migrating to the US legally.

    Markets are usually ahead of law and the markets have spoken: WE NEED MORE IMMIGRANTS as our citizenry gets older.

  11. Just a quick question Brandon, and a few comments…

    What should we do to the countless kids that were born here who are now legal US citizens, even though their parents aren’t? Are we going to tell them that they can stay but their parents have to go?

    I certainly agree that we need to crack down hard on forced prostitution, drug smuggling and so on.

    On the other hand, what about the people who are just here because they desperately needed work, and we (the US) desperately needed workers? Yes, we do have a significant number of people who are out of work, but most of them won’t take the jobs that these immigrants are filling.

    Personally, when I think of the situation, I have to remember that if most of us could trace our roots back far enough, they’d arrive at some poor immigrant who bought cheap passage on a boat, or perhaps stowed away, because they desperately needed work, and there was the promise of starting a new life here. Another significant portion were trying to get away from people who wanted to kill them for their religious beliefs. And, of course, we’ve got the folks who came either as slaves or indentured servants… The differnce between us and the poor guy who’s currently laying shingles on a roof in the blazing heat is that we’re several generations farther down the line.

    Sitting here in my air conditioned office, it’s hard to put myself in the other guy’s shoes, but when I think of it in that perspective, it’s a lot easier. As someone who deals regularly with murderers, drug dealers, rapists, and so on (I do volunteer work in the prison system here) I can assure you that there’s a HUGE difference than someone who’s here illegally because he wasn’t able to get official approval, and all of those types.

    Regards,

    Tim Heard

  12. Brandon,
    I didn’t realize that Crime in America had a Race/illegal VS.Legal designator to it. Must have missed that one on T.V..

    Not trying to play lightly on the Drug nor the prostitution Rings, but to but the claim to fame on only the Illegals well that is blarmy.

    Deborah, I think you made one of the strongest arguments on this board.. Yes indeed there are some very brilliant Engineers, Dr’s, Nurses and other employees who are living in America Both Legally and illegally but are unable to gain positions that are based upon their education, talent and skills.

    Many times these individuals have to live in America and perform the work in the State in which they live (ie Engineers) for a period of time before they can take the exam.

    Other times it may be due to personal Financial Burdens, Language Barriers, Stereotyping and Discrimination that they may not have the opportunity to take the exams, or gain the Experience and Tenure to obtain the American License –
    More often than Not is it due to inferior Training or education.

    All Countries Expect individuals from another country to pass or obtain their Own licenses – the Same goes for Americans living/working in Different States as well – Lawyers and engineers are two examples.
    A person Can graduate from Oxford in England but still need To get their license in America.. The same goes for someone graduating from Harvard going to England, they still have to qualify as an Attorney/Barrister (not the same as Solicitor) in England.

    The biggest Reason that we will see that these Individuals (legal or Not) not have the opportunity to ever work in the fields that they are skilled in is due to ‘the WAR FOR TALENT’ –

    What do I mean – well as long as we will keep fighting for the stereotypye, ‘ideal and Right’ Candidate, the One who Looks the Part, Talks the Part, and Fits the Part, based upon Personal Perceptions, not based upon Qualifications, skills and knowledge, then these individuals will Rarely have that opportunity to be the best that they can be.

    Nah, we can continue to expect having Abercrombie and Finch over and over again.

    Personally I Often think that the only war for talent in America is as big as the heads of the individual doing the Hiring and screening.

    Someone whose opinion I value very much recently made an excellent comment to me regarding the ALLEGED war for talent’ and I hope they don’t mind that I quote

    China has 1,300,000,000 people. If only 15% want to come here and only 10 percent of that group is brilliant, does that not make up for the shortfall? (Not to mention some very smart people from a dozen other countries)

    Well many of these people ARE living here today, why are We NOT utilizing their skills? What are we so scared of?

    Brandon – Back to your comment regarding an open mind — Well I changed mine – I felt that illegal was illegal, but I have changed my mind since then.. I was receptive enough to speak to individuals who are facing the concern of their children losing their friends, their parents, homes, jobs, and the lifestyle they are used to.. it did put a REAL LIFE spin on it..

    REAL LIFE Brandon – these are real life people, with REAL Life Scenarios.. These people do contribute to America in a positive way.. they don’t partake in Drugs or prostitution Rings, they just have a regular job 9-5

    I don’t mind having a solid debate Brandon, but unfortunately I really don’t think yours is effective when your position is to lay claim that

    7 Million People all are contributing to Crime in America
    That the Illegals are the Predominate root of Crime in our country.
    7 million People are draining our economy rather than are an assett..

    By the way, thanks so much to all the positive comments I received – I appreciated it.. Made me blush..

    Karen M.

  13. Immigration has become a very hot topic lately, even though there has been serious concerns for decades in some regions of our country. During the depression years people from the mid-west were treated like unwelcome foreigners in the farms and other labor intensive industries of the west. It was a matter of personal economics, not immigration.

    The issue is very rarely about foreign or work status, but these are handy reasons to grab when the true reasons are more difficult to support strongly. Unemployment of U.S. citizens is not an issue today, but safety and security from terrorism and drug traffic are both worth considering. The simple reason that they are here illegally is hard for us to use simply because our ancestors weren’t on the Native American’s invitee list, either. Hypocrisy is hard to justify.

    Citizenship for tax paying purposes is a worthy American detail, for both the worker and the company making payroll. Our national debt may take us down before the terrorists do.

    A friend made the comment a couple of weeks ago that the United States makes billions of dollars in donations to third world countries where repayment may be impossible, but the immigrant workers from the third world country to our south are working for the payment they receive. It doesn’t make the illegal status go away, but…

  14. There are many a thoughtful works in the market place that address the broad range of serious issues of our time?AND THERE are many. It?s easy to snipe, but simplistic, unsupported opinion, is nothing more than rhetoric. Be an idealist, Chamberline was. Be prepared for the globe to become battlefield, where this time around the good ol USA will be a target?it already is. I look forward to chatting with you all when [not if] the first WMD is set off. Put down the TV and pop corn?get informed. If you find the following resources to disturbing, find some of your own?content you think supports your world view. Then we can have an informed debate?

    THE BIG PICTURE:
    ? Collapse by Jared Diamond addresses civilizations plight in both global and parochial terms.
    ? Dr. Robert J. Bunker, considered one of the preeminent historians of the last hundred years writes about the terrorism and organized crime both from over seas and south of our border in Non-State Threats and Future Wars (must read for anyone who wants to understand the current epochal change). Bunker explains ?Epochal Change? in Western civilization. He describes ?Epochal Change? (a millennium old process) in terms of ?Fourth Epoch War theory?, [http://carlisle-www.army.mil/usawc/Parameters/97summer/bunker.htm] using examples from the 4th to 8th and the 14th to 17th centuries and the period since 1648, marked by the ?Treaty of Westphalia?; which, started a ?cycle of increasing law and order?that led to prosperity for many Western nation-states, their public institutions, and their peoples?we may now be shifting away from stability toward chaos.?
    TERRORISM:
    ? War Footing by Frank Gafffney War Footing: http://www.warfooting.com/LookInside/PageID.3/default.asp;
    ILLEAGAL IMMIGRATION:
    ? Immigrations Unarmed Invasion by Frosty Wooldridge http://www.frostywooldridge.com/; a work offering perspective from a number of authors with backgrounds that qualify them to speak to the entire range of issues around illegal immigration and the consequences if they aren?t resolved.

    And finally, worth repeating for any who think they understand the agenda of those coming from the south just read there own words:

    California State University, M.E.Ch.A.’S Chapters web site (one of the tamer organizations ?and that ain?t say-n much): http://public.csusm.edu/student_orgs/mecha/

    HISTORICAL FOUNDATION (from their web site?I highlighted words in bold for emphasis):

    The fundamental principles that led to the founding of Movimiento Estudiantil Chicano de Aztl?n are found in El Plan de Santa Barbara (EPDSB). The Manifesto of EPDSB sees self-determination for the Chicana and Chicano Chicano and Chicana Movement in El Plan Espiritual de Aztl?n (EPEDA). A synopsis of El Plan stipulates:
    1) We are Chicanos and Chicanas of Aztl?n reclaiming the land of out birth (Chicano and Chicana Nation);
    2) Aztl?n belongs to indigenous people, who are sovereign and not subject to a foreign culture;
    3) We are a union of free pueblos forming a bronze nation;
    4) Chicano and Chicana nationalism, as the key in mobilization and organization, is the common denominator to bring consensus to the Chicano and Chicana Movement;
    5) Cultural values strengthen our identity as La Familia de La Raza; and
    6) EPEDA, as a basic plan of Chicano and Chicana liberation, sought the formation of an independent national political party that would represent the sentiments of the Chicano and Chicana community.

    Now does any of this sound like they want to blend in? Sounds more like Balkanization than melting pot to me. And by the way, these Chicano and Chicana weren?t here when the U.S. acquired the lands of the S.W. There were only about 10,000 Mexicans, and nearly all of them immediately naturalized.

    Under current conditions and trends (if not checked), projections by the U.S. government, based on statistical analysis, conclude that by mid century the U.S. population will be above 500 million and by the end of the century surpass a billion; where a large percentage will be part of a permanent underclass. Think China, India, Bangladesh, etc?

    It?s all fine and good to be a humanist and idealist, but we have to deal with reality. And the reality is that if our politicians an business leaders continue on the present course, America?s middle class will continue to rapidly disappear. I say continue, because there?s clear evidence that it?s already well underway. Illegal immigration into the U.S., just as has happened in France, England and Germany is creating a permanent underclass. This isn?t mere speculation. So, I simply ask every native born or naturalized citizen, ?what do they want for their children??

    As for stopping illegal immigration, the solution to that is really rather simple. Enforce existing laws by going after employers that violate them. When the penalties become to steep, and jobs start going to only those authorized to work in them, the immigration stream will dry up. The ephemeral seasonal stream for labor, or any other real needs can be handled with proper documentation (like Mexico does?their military guards their southern border quite effectively.

    As Dave (originally from Brittan), one of the guys who walks his dog, as I do mine, in our local park said this morning??I waited in line??

  15. Unfortunately, neither I nor any of you can sustain a world on the basis of idealism. In the real world idealism gives way to practicality. If it didn?t, then all of you good HR people when you advertise a job would hire all that apply, especially if the person applying is out of work. How could you turn away a fellow human being, citizen or not, when they have a family to feed? I mean, shouldn?t every business promote the hirer-good and fulfill a social agenda first?before considering the impact on company resources, revenue and profit. The CEO will go for that?

    Just think if every company did this?no unemployment in America. And then to shore up both the world economy and the U.S. talent short fall companies should certainly employ Karen?s ?brilliant? strategy of offering employment to 19,500,000 Chinese (I did the math). But I?m unclear about one thing. By extension shouldn?t U.S businesses and tax payers offer the same proportionate opportunity to India, Bangladesh, Pakistan, etc., and of course we can?t forget to offer (maybe first right of refusal) the same opportunity to all the populations of Central and South America. After all, they?re our neighbors.

    Now I have some questions. First, where does it all end? How many millions can America absorb, and how long until the growth rate from the population of our new comrades outstrips our resources? At what point will our cities begin to resemble those of the third world counties that our new friends and neighbors come from? Second, what are the standards that will be used to select those who get an offer? Will it be just the brightest and best educated of that group, or should that even be a qualifier left to the likes of British Columbia, Canada, Mexico, and in fact, most other nation states of the world. What do they know that we Americans don?t? Shouldn?t American define its needs [measurable objectives and goals] before the mass interview? Shouldn?t we be setting a policy on the basis of measurable standards?

    19.5 million Chinese?sounds like the start of a new cultural revolution?I can?t wait !

  16. Does Balkanization mean anything to anyone out there?

    Historically, with every invasion comes immense change. Does Rome or the myriad of other failed civilizations come to mind? Our melting pot has been a unifying force. The fact is that illegal immigration is an unarmed invasion and all-out assault United States sovereignty. For those who would believe otherwise just visit California State University, M.E.Ch.A.’S Chapters web site (one of the tamer organizations ?and that ain?t say-n much): http://public.csusm.edu/student_orgs/mecha/.

    Lets take a look. Los Angeles is now the functional equivalent to a Latin American Country. Don?t believe me?you go there. Garden Grove, CA might as well be in Viet Nam. Now don?t get upset with me, my daughter-in-law is Vietnamese and I?m going to be a granddaddy in a few months.

    Consider comments by Paoze Thao, Assistant Professor at the Center for Collaborative Education and Professional Studies at California State University and is a former Director of Outreach for the Immigration and Naturalization Service in Chicago, about the 330,000 Mong in the U.S.

    The Mong-Americans are members of an ethnic tribe that migrated from China to Laos in the eighteenth century and assisted the French and Americans in that area during the twentieth century. ?There are raising concerns for educators in California, Minnesota, Wisconsin, North Carolina, Georgia, and Michigan; where large numbers of Mong reside?Since their resettlement in the United States, the Mong have suffered from tremendous frustration, caused by their illiteracy, lack of formal education, and the language barrier that impeded their ability to contribute to society.?

    Like the Hispanic in Los Angeles, and the Vietnamese in Garden Grove, the Mong have segregated themselves, in some cases taking over entire towns including farming communities. None of this balkanization serves America’s interests, unless you believe that increased illiteracy and increases in gang population is a good thing.

    Our globalist leaders like George ?W? [and I don?t mean Washington] would have you believe in a global manifest destiny?and America is on the frontlines of executing this balkanizing [look up the definition] doctrine!

    Forget the American melting pot?it?s history. Our grand children are going to be so proud of the idealist generation that gave away their birth right.

    Viva La Raza !

  17. ?As for the countless kids that were born here who are now legal US citizens, even though their parents aren’t?? Well…

    When they do go back with their parents they will have both the education and experience of freedom that will enable them to shake the foundations of the societies of their origin. The political elite will no longer be able to exploit an ignorant, uneducated underclass. At the same time the U.S. will export a major commonent of the current gang problem that is devistating a growing number of communities. Harsh you say. Tell it to a victem of a gang related crime.

    As for the future, we need to stop encouraging anchor babies. Our congress needs to get rid of the 14th Amendment. It?s no longer relevant. It was created to address the fallout of slavery. Its only current benefit is to those who would use it as a magnet for illegal immigration.

  18. Karen,
    I want you and all reading this to understand that I was referring to an article that discussed legal immigrants (whom should be simply referred to as immigrants, because there is no such thing as an illegal immigrant. If someone comes over illegally, then they are illegal aliens). While it is apparent that both immigrants and illegals may both have difficulty getting work, the only ones we may be concerned with as recruiters are immigrants. We shall not by law have any concern or participation in recruiting illegal aliens, so this discussion’s purpose is obviously not in keeping with recruitment interests. I believe any illegal applying for work in this country should be reported to the authorities and deported. The only entities with the true power to solve many of our issues regarding illegals are those who employ them. Illegals have no problem coming out of the woodwork if someone will pay them. However, they want to share the bread without baking it, from a taxpayer perspective. This is not to say that they don’t earn a day’s pay for picking fruit or laying bricks or stripping tobacco. They do. But so do immigrants and natural born citizens. As Ringo Starr sang, ‘Gotta pay your dues if you wanna sing the blues, and ya know it don’t come easy…’

  19. ?A friend made the comment a couple of weeks ago that the United States makes billions of dollars in donations to third world countries?? Of course?ain?t it wonderful ! What a policy ! We send billions in aid that goes directly to war lords and tyrants, while the intended beneficiaries, the poor, are rounded up and armed [using U.S. tax dollars] to kill one another in tribal conflicts.

    The U.S, by any standard, is generous to a fault. Many of our policies are so absurd they defy imagination.

  20. Brandon,
    I don’t know why I am bothering, but a couple of comments of why your arguments are totally losing ground and credibility-

    1 -Misquoting and twisting what a someone has said to make your point that had nothing to do with what the author was speaking of – for example -‘my’ comments regarding the Chinese was based upon the alleged ‘war for talent’ and the Supposedly upcoming labor shortage.

    2- Massive Generalization ? for goodness sake please, not every illegal or legal alien is breaking laws ? not even a majority.. Nor is increased illiteracy based upon the illegal immigrants either – we have many an increased illiteracy rate amongst American Citizens as well.

    Brandon, you have presented some interesting arguments, but the position you are taking sounds quite a lit like propaganda and stereotyping Blarmy.

    I would like to take the time to step up to the plate and remind other readers or authors on this forum that we do have members who though they themselves are legal Citizens of America, their family members are Not. Please, let us have respect for them. Personally I am beginning to get offended by the hard nose right wing line this conversation has been going. It verges on the edge of profiling and discrimination.

    This type of Comments only do one thing.. it can breed hate and resentment rather than understanding.

    Here in California we have had issues where Businesses owned by Immigrants were burned down ? after 9-11 people were beaten severely because they were thought to be ?Arabs? ? why? It wasn?t like they were terrorists.

    Enough.. Really, this is going to far. I don?t care if your Daughter in law is Vietnamese, or that you will be a grandfather.. that doesn?t make a difference in the Pain and Harm these types of words can cause?..

    Let?s keep this professional. Deborah had this going back to the Right Track ? discussing what this forum is to be about ? Employment ?

    My apologies to all that we may have offended by letting this continue.

    My opinion?

  21. Open borders…

    ?What about the people who are just here because they desperately needed work.? WHAT ABOUT THE ONES WHO AREN’T AND WANT TO BE? Keep tham coming-right?

    Does the US desperately needed workers? There?s no evidence that support that notion. And for the jobs that do need filling, American citizens should insist that our government handle the issue properly.

    Some believe there is a ?significant number of people who are out of work?that won’t take the jobs that these immigrants are filling.? Really !

    The middle class in America is disappearing. That?s documented. Why? Well lets look at Austin, MN [and many other places just like it], where U.S. citizens worked as meat packing plant employees [doing the dirtiest of labor] have lost their jobs, livelihoods, retirements, and consequently their homes to union busting y illegals who?d take the jobs [work that these Americans and their unions fought for while at the same time they no longer wanted?hum?]. I don?t know what these English speaking, mostly high school educated midlife adults thought they were going to do when they lost these jobs?retraining I guess.

    I could go on?and on?like the woman in San Diego, that my wife knows who had to close her long time maid service because she could no longer compete with illegal immigrants that work for slave wages without benefits as employers avoid all the other costs [wages, workers comp, and all the other costs that law bidding business owners must abide by at the risk of being prosecuted by the state].

    Similar stories play out in factory sweat shops, food service, agriculture, hospitality, construction (an industry once dominated by American craftsman?I was one of them?no longer), and the list goes on and on?

    In the mid-?60?s when I was a teenager, I made $6/hr carrying hod and tending blocks for the skill craftsmen that put up buildings brick-by-brick.. I worked along side adults that did the same thing for a couple of dollars more per hour [they were on permanent; I was working a summer job]. Today, 40 years latter [oh-my-god, did I say 40] illegals do the same job for about the same raw dollars, unadjusted for inflation. Tell me how a middle class American can afford to do that? Tell me how importing a second wave slaves is a good thing?for anybody?

    Why is our media not coving the real human plight of middle class American workers, and the slaves that we?re importing that serve the bedroom class communities of America? Illegal immigrant mom?s and dad?s, good people out trying to make an honest living, while their latch key Anchor Babies are rooming the ghettos in an ever expanding world of gang related violence. Twenty-five percent of the U.S. prision population is comprised of illegals, and the cost isn’t just in raw dollars to run corrections facilities. Every one of those ciminals is there because of some crime that had an impact on either a U.S. citizen or nother illegal. I suggest that we prevent these criminals from getting in here by closing the borders. Let them perpetrate their crimes in their homeland, where the law enforcement their can take care of them.

  22. In 1794, when Congress appropriated $15,000 for relief of French refugees who fled from insurrection in San Domingo to Baltimore and Philadelphia, James Madison stood on the floor of the House to object saying, ‘I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents.’
    — James Madison, 4 Annals of congress 179 (1794)

  23. I’m not sure who hijacked this thread and made it an immigration topic, but so be it.

    You can put all the bleeding heart spin on it that you want, but Illegal is Illegal. Why should those of us who came to this country legally have to pay for those who want to bypass the system?

    I say US because I come from an immigrant family. My family worked hard to get into this country. They made sure we learned to read and write ENGLISH, and we were raised to respect the laws and traditions of this land.

    As a recruiter, I spend a lot of time importing labor from other countries to work in engineering and other roles. These people are educated and contribute to our society by sharing their knowledge and technical skills as well as their culture. They follow our laws, pay taxes and usually achieve great success here.

    I will always support legal immigration, but those that choose to enter this country illegally are law breakers and shouldn’t be entitled to anything but a ticket home.

  24. Please, I ask, bring this back to the focus of Recruiting.

    This is Not what ERE is about – Brandon, We get your point, believe me, it has been stated. Loud and Clear.

    But this is NOT the forum, venue or avenue to discuss this. This is a Political discussion, and is one that has the potential to cause much pain and distress.

    There are a lot of angry and bitter words based upon this subject, and there are many people who don’t need to see them.

    The government will decide, and if you feel that there needs to be involvement by the public, then Create a blog, let us know where it is, invite us, and have the discussion there.

    Please keep this professional, about Recruiting, about our industry… And above all let us respect others in this Network who this subject may affect.

    Karen Mattonen.

  25. ERE stands for ?Electronic Recruiter Exchange?, so I guess we are on topic.

    The focus of illegal immigration is right on target: Recruiting illegal ?aliens?is illegal. PERIOD.

    POLITICO? You?ve read and responded to Senators Kennedy/Frist missives: So I guess this IS the forum, venue and avenue for a Political discussion. Bring on the ?pain and distress?.

    Loud and Clear.

    1 ?Sorry Karen I neither misquoted, nor did I twist the comment regarding a calculation regarding a Chinese impact. In the ‘war for talent’ American labor has already come up short in wages, standard of living and job availability. This is no secret.

    2- Massive Generalization? Karen, consider your words carefully. Remember, I’m well read on this topic and you’ve stated clearly that you have to time to do the same. One who does something ?illegal? is by very definition breaking laws ? 100%.

    As for illiteracy rates, my wife teaches in every elementary school in Oceanside. Once you?ve visited these school, and spent some time in them, and after you?ve view the recent statistics on who?s failing the standardized tests and dropping out of our schools long before graduating I?d be happy to discuss the issue?facts only please.

    Blarmy, you say. Here?s a challenge. Develop a two column table with our respective names at the top of one of each of the columns. Read carefully through all of the posting content. Cut and paste fact based information, not opinion, generated by each of us in our respective rows. Then compare–the facts.

    It may be profiling but it certainly isn?t discrimination?it?s duty!

    No hate, I?m not anti-immigrant, just anti-illegal. THERE IS A DIFFERENCE. A patriotic citizen, when seeing a crime, reports it. What else is there to understand?

    Frankly Karen, having read hundreds of your past unambiguous opinions [line in the sand] in relation to WHAT IS ETHICAL AND WHAT ISN’T, I?m rather shocked that you could take a stance that illegal is some how NOT. There’s no logic in it…compassion only enters the picture in relation to how one deals with the sentance. Our LAWS AND EHTICS call for employer sanctions, that if enforced, would dry up the gravey train and all of the illegal ‘aliens’ would take a bus, plane, traine or car home, back across what ever borders…

    I?m out of breath?and look forward to seeing the completed table replete with fact based citations

  26. Karen and Deborah have just said it succintly: This is the spot to discuss employment and employment law and the applications therein. Period.
    I personally do not want to hear, read or know – in this location – anyone’s views for or against immigration – legal or not.
    I wish that I could acknowledge to my mother (now deceased for 22 years) how right she was about the perils of discussing politics or religion. Of course, she meant ‘polite society’ and this discussion slipped those bounds quite some time ago.
    The official subject of this discussion is important enough and can have so many hidden pitfalls and perils for the unwary.. Really, Brandon,shouldn’t you be worrying about that?
    Sondra Fuller

  27. Karen,

    I agree with you wholeheartedly on focusing this discussion back to recruiting. I read this forum every day because I’m interested in what recruiters have to say.

  28. Sondra,
    thanks – Brandon – You ever heard of Statute of Limitations? Okay, so they came in illegaly, but like EVERYONE else in America, there should be a statute of limitations.

    Now getting back to the main topic – NoOne is going to be handed american citizenship on a platter…

    If a person is deemed strong enough to go through the process, have been an active strong asset to America, they will be given a temporary green Card, then in 2 years, a permanent, and then after a few years (usually 4-6) they go through the process of gaining their citizenship.

    They will have to maintain a strong ethical and upstanding lifestyle in america. They will have to prove that they are upstanding people who deserve their citizenship.

    They will have to wait in lines.. they will have to go through the process..

    Again, Yes you twisted my words.. my words were based upon a War for Talent, and bringing Foreign Nationlists to help fill the Pending Shortages we May encounter. That also in creating legality for many as well can help allow individuals to also be able to implement their skills in the trades that they are trained in… These are factors that we also need to look at..

    When people come legally Brandon, they are paid fairly, the same as their peers.. When individuals become legal the same will happen..

    So what is your point? No, you don’t know your facts.. I am sorry to say.. Facts have more than one perspective.. they have pros and cons, good and bad.

    Again, this post started about ofccp, not about Discrimination against illegals.. there is another post about that..

    Discrimination is discrimination, no matter if it is against legals, illegals..

    Strong Words, negative words hurt.. and I am really upset with this conversation..

    To over Generalize, Cast Blame on Every person who has migrated to the United States is over the Edge.. This is the kind of information that can create hate.. Sorry, I cannot approve of this.

    This is an important topic for sure.. but to keep it professional is more important than to discuss personal feelings and opinions that are very subjective to say the least – without any credence to the objective and important factor to which ERE is about – How this may affect recruiting and employment.

  29. Brandon,
    Hear. Hear. Kudos to you for expressing the truth and not succumbing to party lines.

    Based on the rationale used by our ‘representatives’ in Washington to justify their positions on immigration, I trust neither party to really concern themselves with the interests of either American business or American citizens.

    The Senate bill on immigration will not work. It is a repeat of legislation passed once before, that also never worked. It is a red herring.

    Illegal immigration and the employment of illegal immigrants must be stopped first.

  30. Ugh. This is a no-win argument no matter which side you are on. I think it has merit on ERE because of the implications….one might tend to tread lightly on this subject (such as Brandon and Karen) as to not tarnish their reputations with those of dissenting opinions. Why don’t you two email each other one off and have a full fledged debate? Good luck to both of you. The passion is obvious.

  31. Heh. I’m again reminded of a comment I made a while back. I can’t remember who the players were at the time, but it was nearing the end of a raging debate.

    With the job market the way it is, and companies actually calling us with openings again (as opposed to a few years ago when we had to aggressively call to get them) how in the world do you all have the time to conduct this raging debate?

    Brandon, those of us who disagree with you probably aren’t going to be convinced no matter how argumentative you get.

    Karen, I’ll grant that you’ve tried to end the thread, but every post gives Brandon the desire to get the last word in. Let him have it. He’s not going to change his mind either.

    Everyone, let’s focus on dicussions that might help us assist our clients and make some money in the process. … I have all the openings I can handle at the moment. I really shouldn’t even be wasting my time reading this thread, much less replying to it.

  32. I agree. I am of the Karen school-of-thought on this issue, and personally find the discourse of Brandon et al is well-known rhetoric bordering on prejudice and misinformation (not to mention your ample posts about sensational stories that have nothing to do with OFCCP requirements to prove your point ?- have you ever read anything positive about the Hispanic contribution to America or does that escape your radar?). That’s all I will submit on this, but I will recognize that we should try to stick to issues — even on this topic — that relate to human capital and talent management rather than politics and partisanship. As professionals, let’s use this forum accordingly, rather than throwing uncorroborated and judgmental beliefs that tarnish the quality of discussion.

  33. I am cross posting something here and I hope ERE will allow – I think that it is important that I am not going to appear as a hypocrite and explain my position. I have edited this post.

    Please let me make something clear – I am REALLY neither FOR nor AGAINST the Amnesty on those who have entered this country illegally.

    I came to this country legally about 17 Years ago. Followed the rules and procedures. For a long time I also felt the same as many do about the ‘legal’ issue. And Sadly I will admit, my opinions were hostile as some of the ones I see here..
    I too believed that if You broke the law then one should not be rewarded.. Especially considering that American Citizenship is something to be valued and it is a Privilege an honor to have..

    Well, The reason for my posts is to Play Devils Advocate – to show that there are two sides of every coin.

    And to be honest, the more I read Brandon’s Posts, the more I am actually getting off the fence and questioning my personal beliefs about holding onto a ?truth?; Sometimes we must all go through a learning curve, and I am coming to accept that there are times we can be so hardnosed on any subject and be blinded from seeing the good and bad with any topic. Trust me I know.

    Anger and strong words breeds hatred.. I think that This topic is too important to be completely biased, and to not see the pros and cons – not to know the facts and details

    Is there some truth in what Brandon says? Well as with any position, I am sure there is if you can get pass the overgeneralization, diatribe, hostility and propaganda and dig deep enough; It is hard, especially since it is hard to read something that displays strong odium, misinformation and is very biased.

    Thus I have posted the other side of this argument to explain that there is more than one view.. I have attempted to keep my personal feelings out of this.. Well that is not hard as I still am unsure of where I stand on this topic.

    It is important to present and discuss facts, statistics numbers, but on both sides to allow others to base their opinions on the real issues at hand, not on Subjective point of views.

    Yes this indeed is an important topic, especially when we take in what we do for a living – Employment – and we take in what these people bring to the table – Able Bodies, and Manpower.

    Anyways. That is my two cents, and thought I should Clarify.. I Karen Mattonen is Neither For Nor against this Issue.. I REALLY am Sitting on this fence and trying to determine all Pros and Cons.. Fairly and Honestly.

    But I do ask one thing, if we continue this conversation Please keep it professional.. Without discrimination, anger and stick to the facts please.

  34. Bravo,Karen!

    I’ve been watching these exchanges for a while. Thus far, I thought it was painful. Finally, here’s my 2 cents.

    We made the mistake of hiring terrorists to learn how to fly and kill us. The hunt goes on here and abroad but we know it will come again.

    Now we are attempting to keep the American dream just a dream for those who are here and working to support their families as well as others who are without the means to file for visas.

    One situation is as bad as the next in that we still have plenty of jobs here that are not being filled because some Americans prefer to collect unemployment. Where is the justice?

    All I know is that our ancestors came here with hope in their hearts for making a stand in a brave new world. In the process, we took away the homes of the original inhabitants with no thought to how wrong that was. We can be a very selfish society and if we keep that up, the passion, energy and spirit of America will be lost to the policy makers who cannot even practice what they preach.

    My best regards,
    Rosemary Petreikis
    Senior Vice President
    Bayard Advertising

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